Johto Legacy discussion

Since "Pokémon Christmas" and "Pokémon Spirits and Legends" go together in a combined canon that I've been referring to as the "Johto Legacy" I figured I would make a thread where people could discuss and ask questions involving continuity between these two and GSC, whether it is something like "Why did you do this?" or "Well if Gold and Crystal are leaving now, who did X during the summer?" and things like that. So, on to some preliminary discussion of the hacks and their idea.

Basically, the plan is to expand on the story of Pokemon Gold and Silver. In Chronological order, the hacks would go:

1. Original Gold/Silver/Crystal*
2. Spirits and Legends
3. Pokémon Christmas

*There may eventually be plans to complete the series by taking original Gold, revamping the maps and tilesets to bring them up to date with the Halloween and Christmas Hacks, and adding in the new areas while keeping the original 251 Pokemon available. This would hopefully include Lake of Rage flooding as well.

For the sake of this, each can be considered a direct sequel as they will assume that the events of the previous game have already happened.

PLAYER CONTINUITY

In GSC, you have the option to play as Hiro or Kris (later retconned to be Lyra by HG/SS), who start their journey from New Bark town in the spring/summer. For the sake of continuity, we work off the idea that Lyra was the trainer who left during the summer, and that she is most likely friends with (or related to) Kris, who starts her journey in the winter as Hiro's friendly rival.

In Spirits and Legends, you will play as someone new, a trainer from Cherrygrove City named Jack. You will still get your starter from Elm, but naturally that will indicate that the stories will be quite different. This is also because: Clearly, not all trainers begin their journey in New Bark Town. There will also be two rivals, one from New Bark Town and the other from Cherrygrove City. Neither of them are Silver.

In Pokémon Christmas, you play as Hiro, who starts his journey during the winter around Christmas time. His rival is Kris, who we can assume to be friends with (or related to) Lyra, explaining some of their similarities in appearance and mannerisms.


GYM CONTINUITY

In GSC, you visit the 8 gyms in Johto, the 8 gyms in Kanto, and the fighting dojo does not serve a purpose (except in HG/SS). As the volcano has erupted, Blaine's gym is in a cave of Seafoam Islands, and BLUE is the gym leader in Viridian City.

In Spirits and Legends, you will still visit the 8 gyms of Johto, and the Water Dojo in Goldenrod will be built, but not open for challenges yet. I am currently debating on whether or not you will go to Kanto or another region after the Elite Four in Spirits and Legends. I have ideas I could use for either option.

In Pokémon Christmas, you visit the 8 gyms of Johto and Kanto, as well as the Water Dojo in Goldenrod. Blaine has rebuilt his gym on Cinnabar Island. As Blue is said to be off exploring the HOENN region, the gym was left empty and Giovanni (presumably called out by Team Rocket's broadcasts from the summer) has become Gym Leader again in a last attempt to resurrect Team Rocket. The attempt is abandoned when you defeat him.


ELITE FOUR CONTINUITY

In GSC, the Elite Four consist of Will, Bruno, Koga, and Karen. The Champion is Lance, who appears previously to help the player stop Team Rocket causing trouble in Mahogany Town.

In Spirits and Legends, we see that Will is getting bored with being a member of the Elite Four, and is thinking about leaving to become a traveling trainer again. The Original Elite Four are still there, although we see that RED has returned from training in Mt. Silver to take the place he earned in Red Version as Elite Four Champion. In this version, Red does not help you outside of battle beforehand. (That is, if Kanto is the second region. If another region is used, then the elite four will be different as well).

In Pokémon Christmas, we see that Will has indeed left his job as Elite Four, and Lorelei has returned. It is also worth noting that on her travels before returning, Lorelei captured an Articuno which has been added to her team. The other Elite Four members remain, and we see that Red is still the champion, because Jack has clearly decided to go back to Johto and become a Pokémon Breeder.


GAMEPLAY CONTINUITY

In GSC, you find the original 251 Pokémon from Johto around the regions. Berry trees grow Berries and Apricorns, and Kurt makes balls for trainers, etc.

In Spirits and Legends, we see that Berries and Apricorns still grow, although Apricorns are getting more scarce and an NPC mentions that they are about to be out of season. A few Pokémon are beginning to go into hibernation, and a few more Ghost and Dark type pokemon are showing up. An NPC mentions that Pokémon are seasonal, and not all of them are around all year. The upper floors of the Radio Tower are off limits to visitors, following Team Rocket's take over. The Bug Catching Contest will not occur in National Park, as a Fall Festival is going on there that you can check out. However, the Johto Safari Zone will be holding a contest instead. Pokemon Centers will be single-story buildings, but the Global Terminal will be in Goldenrod City. The Battle Tower will be under construction. The Magnet Train will be running, but you will need a pass to board it of course (If Kanto is the second region). Lake of Rage will still flood on certain days like it did in HG/SS (if I can make it work, which I think I can). There will also be a few features added that were originally in Gen III, such as the "Trendy Phrase" that will have an effect on some things in the game. It will also be used to unlock a few nifty things like it was in RSE.

In Pokémon Christmas, we see that apricorns are no longer harvestable, with common berries in their place. Kurt sells the custom Pokéballs now to make up for this. Many lakes and ponds have iced over, and people enjoy skating and ice fishing. Due to the ice and snow, the routes leading to the Safari Zone are inaccessible, the path to the abandoned cemetery is obscured, and other things. The Battle Tower is built, and will allow you to gain points on your Battle Card by using Practice Battle Machines. A ferry is running now to take trainers to South Isle, where they can take part in the Legend Festival. Pewter Museum is still open, and is running a christmas special making it Free to come inside, among other things. There are a few features added from Gen III here as well, and an additional part of the quest where the player has to be disguised as a girl.


OTHER CONTINUITY

Any other continuity questions can be discussed in the thread, and of course any questions and comments are welcome and encouraged. Questions about the Halloween Hack are speculative, and the possibility of a revamp of Gold to complete the story is even more speculative, but questions regarding any of the Johto Legacy are welcome.


Graphics

I've recently gotten a crazy idea to apply Tauwasser's Tileset Extension to these hacks, and use (more than one) version of the tileset I've posted elsewhere on the forum. You know, the one that looks like Gen II and Gen III had a baby. Obviously, the problem with this is that it would involve redoing the outdoor tilesets and most likely remapping everything, which would push release back even farther. So I'd like some feedback on whether or not you guys think I should add this to Christmas, or just wait a bit and use it for Spirits and Legends.

jwibagi wrote:I think it's best to say that they are cousins or fraternal twins. Just so that it can explain away the similarities easier.

That's a good idea, I think I'll go with that! Thanks for the suggestion.

jwibagi wrote:I never thought of legendaries as "an". More of "the". Still, your game and how you want it to be. Smile

I know the games indicated that they were one-of-a-kind, but I remember there being a baby Lugia in the anime, I think it was part of a family actually, indicating that they aren't as singular as they seem in the games. Which makes sense, because in the real world you would have to have a small breeding population at least for the species to continue

jwibagi wrote:This adds a reality-aspect to the game. I like this thought very much, but this does mean Ursaring and others would be rarer/removed?

I was planning that they would be rarer. In Christmas, they are still there but more rare and only found in caves (unless I've overlooked some Wild Pokemon data) to make it more realistic.

jwibagi wrote:Adding it would make the hack stand out a lot more, and give it more of an edge than it has now. What I suggest is that you work on your current to-do list for Christmas, complete those, work on SaL, get a playable demo out (not completely finished, just a teaser), then install those graphic updates by Christmas.

Also sounds like a good plan. I figured either way, I would get the gameplay parts done first, but probably also a good call to get at least a demo of SaL out before I do a major change like that. Plus it would mean that I could do an update at Christmas but keep it compatible with your old saves.

jwibagi wrote:Other than that, looking very solid! I can tell you've put tons of thought into your series. One thing you might want to talk about is Pokemon replacements, including Fakemon.

D'oh! I knew I left something out!

jwibagi wrote:

Mateo wrote:Lorelei captured an Articuno which has been added to her team.

I never thought of legendaries as "an". More of "the". Still, your game and how you want it to be. :)

If I may give some input on this one, I like the Multiple Articuno Hypothesis. From a biological standpoint, a single organism cannot survive as the only member of it's species, so that automatically rules that out. Thus, one can assume that it is a small breeding population of individuals, just above the threshold of survival (which doesn't mean it's endangered, of course). So with that said, it's assumed that Articuno must have a long lifespan and adolescence, with an increased parental investment in each offspring, which in-turn sustains the small breeding population.

O mein Gott, please excuse my inner Bioanthropology-Major for that spiel.

jwibagi wrote:

Vitharix wrote:If I may give some input on this one, I like the Multiple Articuno Hypothesis. From a biological standpoint, a single organism cannot survive as the only member of it's species, so that automatically rules that out. Thus, one can assume that it is a small breeding population of individuals, just above the threshold of survival (which doesn't mean it's endangered, of course). So with that said, it's assumed that Articuno must have a long lifespan and adolescence, with an increased parental investment in each offspring, which in-turn sustains the small breeding population.

O mein Gott, please excuse my inner Bioanthropology-Major for that spiel.

That's a pretty rational hypothesis. Catching one must have been quite a feat. Maybe Lorelei could mention finding the secret Articuno nest. And maybe even tell the player where to go to catch one.

Haha, nothing wrong with your spiel, Vitharix. We seem to be on the same wavelength when it comes to the legendary Pokemon in terms of biology haha.

Also jwibagi, that might be cool to have her mention it. I might even want to add in an encounter with her somewhere before the Elite Four battle as well (makes sense for a winter/ice hack, I think.) If nothing else, it would give her a better reason to be talking about Articuno. Maybe have her mention it ahead of time, then when you finally battle her you see that she has one.